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That’s news to me.
I hope that isn’t true here in the United States.
850 Mk2 & Mk2A Discussion Split From Another Thread
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I hope that isn’t true here in the United States.
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It's a photo in Jeff Clew's Norton Commando Super Profile book.
The photo caption reads:
"Shaw Taylor, famous for his 'Police 5' series on ITV, visited the Norton factory at Andover for a Thames Television feature. Dennis Poore is seen in the foreground, seated on a conveniently-placed tea chest.
(Mike Jackson)"
Edit:
Not entirely, as 20M3S production began at Plumstead Rd. around March '69. Commando production at Plumstead didn't end until July that year.
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Regarding the UK I think you need to be more specific? If you mean a public database of who owns which particular vehicle then, no.
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That's not unique to Commando's. I had a 1974 Z1-B for awhile.
After it was long gone I was debating with a gent and come to find out the Z1-B was a 75 model year.
Since then, Model designations are what count, not the year.
marshg246
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In Virginia, without a title, you need a chain of ownership from the time of import if you don't have a title.
Here's how bad it is in Virginia. In 1973 I bought and titled a Triumph 500. It was registered by the state and county (personal property tax). In 1984 I let the registration lapse because life got in the way. Then in 1993 I moved to Germany for 8 years. The bike never left Virginia from 1973 except for rides to the Triumph shop in Maryland. When I came back from Germany, I wanted to put it on the road again, but I couldn't find the title. I did have the plate, expired registration, and county registration label. Not sufficient! They had no record of the title even though I had the title number they would not issue a new title. After months of effort, I finally got my state congressman to intercede and they agreed to provide a new title. I had to pay the titling fee, lost title fee, sales tax on the book value and wait about two months for it to be blocked at every turn and the congressman to intercede. Finally, I got the title with the VIN typo'ed. So, I had to send it back and pay additional fees for them to correct their error! Today, I have lots of motorcycles that are titled but not registered (mostly in pieces). I am VERY careful about the titles - they don't keep the electronic records long if not registered but will reinstate them with a physical title.
A few years ago I wanted a Triumph Trident a guy in Florida was selling. He didn't have a title so I wouldn't buy it. He said: "Just tell them you bought it in Georgia and they didn't title them back then". I said, OK you do that and I'll give you and extra $50. I bought the bike the next day with a Florida title!
I've heard that out-of-state people can get a Vermont title for a price.
marshg246
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It's not like there's a free web site when you can lookup a VIN and find owner info in the US with no effort. There are 50 states plus territories and they all have their own info, policies, procedures, and rules.
However, the data is matter of the public record and a common citizen can get the info without much trouble in most states.
There are LOTS of sites where you can lookup a person by VIN or plate in the US.
This is actually a problem for vintage bikes. Since we don't have anything that looks like a VIN, those sites, including the ones the DMV uses cannot find our bikes in most cases. Even the central database held by the Federal Government has troubles lookin them up.
In Virginia, you sometimes can't get a title without an investigation because of this. Basically they have to hand-check various records to make sure it's not stolen. It's not a big deal - they send you the title a couple of weeks.
Blewdy Yaink
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That settles that, as I thought. But why didn't I guess the M. Jackson Esq. would have a finger in it all??
That's why I said "pretty much" -- maybe 3 months at AMC (I've seen several sources that the last motorcycle produced was May '69 but 51 years later, who can be sure about a month or two here and there, did engine build go on for a few weeks after Andover began vehicle assembly??) - then approx 30 for engine production at Wolverhampton and vehicle assembly at Andover.
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Firstly, and most importantly, UK vehicles don't have titles.
The UK vehicle registration authority (DVLA) only keeps a record of who is a vehicle's 'registered keeper' whose name and address is on the vehicle's V5C registration document which is the vehicle's identity document, although in most cases the registered keeper is the 'owner', possession of the V5C is not proof of ownership, therefore even the DVLA does not know for sure who owns a particular vehicle.
https://www.dvla-contact-number.co....the-registered-keeper-and-owner-of-a-vehicle/
To obtain information from the DVLA requires "reasonable cause":
_________________________________________
https://www.gov.uk/request-information-from-dvla
"You can ask DVLA for information about your vehicle or another vehicle and its registered keeper if you have a ‘reasonable cause’.
Information about another vehicle or its registered keeper
You can ask for details of another vehicle’s registered keeper. You’ll need a ‘reasonable cause’, for example:
- finding out who was responsible for an accident
- tracing the registered keeper of an abandoned vehicle
- tracing the registered keeper of a vehicle parked on private land
- giving out parking tickets
- giving out trespass charge notices
- tracing people responsible for driving off without paying for goods and services
- tracing people suspected of insurance fraud"
A vehicle can be searched by registration number ('license' plate, US) but that only gives basic vehicle details and if the vehicle is taxed and MoT'd.
There are websites where 17-digit UK VIN numbers can be searched but only gives vehicle details.
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Various sources state July and there's a photo (somewhere?) of the last Plumstead Commando which if I remember correctly was an 'S' type (20M3S).
Plumstead apparently continued to build engines and manufacture parts for a while after bike assembly ended. The Plumstead-built engines are said to have a 'P' suffix but I'm not sure how accurate that information is.
"30"?
marshg246
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Still looking for more data points. Please provide as much of the serial number as you're comfortable with, the date from the certification label, and head (RH4, RH10, etc.) I have the head for a few of the ones in the list - if you didn't say it before, please provide. Mostly interested in 850s right now before MKIII but will add any to the list.
Incase you don't know: 1) the head number is on top, near the timing side exhaust rocker cover. 2) the certification label is the red and silver plate connected to the frame behind the headlight.
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3017xx all matching numbers, rh4 head, 932 amal carbs, roadster tank. MK1 . I was guessing mine was made in about june of 73. Am I close to the month from these numbers ? Do the numbers tell what model it was when it left the factory ? Such as roadster, hi rider, interstate ? And what color it was ?
Thanks for your help
Thanks for your help
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3017xx is more likely to be about March '73.
No, but AN has the records for "300000 to 305549" so could probably tell you.
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/factory-records/
marshg246
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Your date should be well before Jun 73 - what does it say on the red and silver plate behind the headlight?
No, the numbers are really just serial numbers. It appears that there were some overlaps in the numbers.
The RH4 head (I'm pretty sure) tells you MK1 and the serial number is soundly in the MK1 timeframe.
If you order the factory from AN, you'll know a little more. How much I don't know. In 72 it was simply the serial, model, and color - not even combat or not. In 74 quite a bit more.
holtcorseaux
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310528 11/73 RH10 rear frame not reinforced
Blewdy Yaink
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Yes, Len. I had to turn in the V5C to the State of North Carolina (US) to obtain a "title" for a vehicle which is not a motorcycle which only goes to show you how little that is known by registration authorities around the world. And I don't remember seeing a "model year" quoted on any V5C I've ever taken a look at.
As we've noted, the idea of a model year is a US marketing fantasy that had no basis in defined fact until it was enshrined into the requirements for certification of vehicles for air pollution prevention.
Blewdy Yaink
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I wrote:
I've seen several sources that the last motorcycle produced was May '69 but 51 years later, who can be sure about a month or two here and there,
I have seen a statement that possession of the land at Plumstead Rd. reverted to the Council in May '69, with the implication being that that was the time when everyone had to be out and the wreckers began pulling down the structure but, again, over 50 years ago, details have become *very* shrouded in time. Not that it matters, we agree that a "general statement" for end of production at Plumstead Rd. was about the middle of 1969.
I wrote:
did engine build go on for a few weeks after Andover began vehicle assembly??)
I've noted this supposed suffix for Plumstead engines, too, but that would have been long before my arrival at the Wolverhamton. I think that I've seen a photo of *one* engine number with a "P" suffix but that the only validation of this practice that I've seen. I agree with your lack of confidence in this. My '69 "S" built about April, 1969 (Serial No. 20M3S/1317**) did not have a "P" suffix; similarly, my '70 Roadster which was built about June, 1970 (Serial No. 20M3S/1366**) did not have a "P" suffix.
I believe that the whole move of final vehicle assembly from Woolwich to Andover was a "phased" operation -- some bits ended at the AMC works and began at Andover on one date and then other bits at a later date, etc. until at some time there was a final and complete end of the transfer. And I have never seen any data that indicates to me when that final phase of transfer happened. I KNOW that that was what happened for the shutdown of vehicle assembly at Andover and transfer of assembly to Wolverhampton -- I was at Wolverhampton at the time. NB. I heard bit of info that makes me think -- without a lot of certainty and no written records -- that some "odd bits of production" carried over at Andover after the supposed final date of the transfer.
I wrote:
- then approx 30 for engine production at Wolverhampton and vehicle assembly at Andover.
Sorry to be obscure. I meant to make clear that there was about 3 months of production of the 20M3S engine at Plumstead Rd. and then production of the the 20M3S engine at Wolverhampton from mid-1969 until 1 January, 1972:
6 months in 1969
12 months in 1970
12 months in 1971
"approx. 30 months of engine production at Wolverhampton" -- for that particular series of engine.
Apologies for not being clearer.
I've seen several sources that the last motorcycle produced was May '69 but 51 years later, who can be sure about a month or two here and there,
I have seen a statement that possession of the land at Plumstead Rd. reverted to the Council in May '69, with the implication being that that was the time when everyone had to be out and the wreckers began pulling down the structure but, again, over 50 years ago, details have become *very* shrouded in time. Not that it matters, we agree that a "general statement" for end of production at Plumstead Rd. was about the middle of 1969.
I wrote:
did engine build go on for a few weeks after Andover began vehicle assembly??)
I've noted this supposed suffix for Plumstead engines, too, but that would have been long before my arrival at the Wolverhamton. I think that I've seen a photo of *one* engine number with a "P" suffix but that the only validation of this practice that I've seen. I agree with your lack of confidence in this. My '69 "S" built about April, 1969 (Serial No. 20M3S/1317**) did not have a "P" suffix; similarly, my '70 Roadster which was built about June, 1970 (Serial No. 20M3S/1366**) did not have a "P" suffix.
I believe that the whole move of final vehicle assembly from Woolwich to Andover was a "phased" operation -- some bits ended at the AMC works and began at Andover on one date and then other bits at a later date, etc. until at some time there was a final and complete end of the transfer. And I have never seen any data that indicates to me when that final phase of transfer happened. I KNOW that that was what happened for the shutdown of vehicle assembly at Andover and transfer of assembly to Wolverhampton -- I was at Wolverhampton at the time. NB. I heard bit of info that makes me think -- without a lot of certainty and no written records -- that some "odd bits of production" carried over at Andover after the supposed final date of the transfer.
I wrote:
- then approx 30 for engine production at Wolverhampton and vehicle assembly at Andover.
Sorry to be obscure. I meant to make clear that there was about 3 months of production of the 20M3S engine at Plumstead Rd. and then production of the the 20M3S engine at Wolverhampton from mid-1969 until 1 January, 1972:
6 months in 1969
12 months in 1970
12 months in 1971
"approx. 30 months of engine production at Wolverhampton" -- for that particular series of engine.
Apologies for not being clearer.
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Time Warp
.......back to the 70's.
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Mk2a 311032 Dec73 ... Somehow got to the USA, now in Australia, perhaps these two bikes knew each other once.
Candy apple red.
Low UK handle bars that look like original and match 06-4132 specs.
All A model items in place (Plastic air box.L/H side cover and battery tray ,2nd gear etc)
Reinforced top shock mount (inner plate)
Balanced header pipes (but might be non original)
Chain guard extension ???
Early style wide bush swing arm.
Rear brake plate with non external adjustment and non cut out chain guard.
Square pattern seat with (looks) silver font.
Non painted engine cases and RH10 cylinder head.
Inner primary cover with a cone on the sliding disc.
Stamped number beside the date tag = 105226.
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