EBAY Throttle Body

Gojuu said:
Yep, same length @cliffa - and yes, I'm probably being a bit pedantic, but why not do it properly?

This is it from a cold start. I will admit to cold being a matter of context as it's January and I live on the East Coast of Australia.



A tad lopey and hangs around a 1000 rpm, then picks back up to 1200 when warm.
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Awesome, sounds much more stable than my one does when it's cold!
 
cliffa said:
Thanks Gojuu, I understand now. I guess that the clip is not strictly necessary as the rail is held in place with the two Allen bolts, but if you really wanted to fit them I suppose you could carefully saw slots in them in the correct position? Are the green and grey injectors the same physical size? Would the addition of the heat insulator washer be affecting the relative position of the slots?

I wonder what these eBay bodies were destined for as they seem to be quite different to any of the units fitted to production bikes ( as far as I’m aware)
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These were used by MCT/Norton on the earliest 961 engines. Stu Bodycote can confirm , but early Nortons weren’t using a IAC. Stu mentioned this before.
 
TonyA said:
These were used by MCT/Norton on the earliest 961 engines. Stu Bodycote can confirm , but early Nortons weren’t using a IAC. Stu mentioned this before.
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I'm kinda getting the feeling that a lot of negativity towards the idle has been possibly unfairly targeted towards ECU / IAC / hoses etc when really there was a mechanical issue - that being the balance pipe. With these being "early" I almost wonder if they introduced the IAC specifically as to fix an idle issue when they should have been removing the balance pipe.

It will be interesting to see what happens with a Delta installed and the IAC turned off in the computer - vs just unplugging it with the current.
 
Gojuu said:
I'm kinda getting the feeling that a lot of negativity towards the idle has been possibly unfairly targeted towards ECU / IAC / hoses etc when really there was a mechanical issue - that being the balance pipe. With these being "early" I almost wonder if they introduced the IAC specifically as to fix an idle issue when they should have been removing the balance pipe.

It will be interesting to see what happens with a Delta installed and the IAC turned off in the computer - vs just unplugging it with the current.
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Yip, the issue with the idle is definitely mechanical. A lot of hate was directed at SCS, ironically it's the bikes with SCS ECU's that can be sorted a lot easier than the OMEX bikes. Glad to see the mod can be performed without the standard ECU throwing a wobbly. By the time I had figured out what was going on I'll already invested in the Delta 400 and an expensive dual band O2 monitoring system that enabled me to finally figure out what was going on! No one believed me at first and it was a revelation to both Norton and Jenvey when I presented the results of my investigations - Norton had me try all sorts of other tests to disprove my hypothesis! Jenvey while a little interested ultimately just said this is Norton's problem.

Like the cold start vid very similar to my last one. :) I must get around to playing around with the ignition advance to see if I can use that to achieve a more consistent idle. At the moment it idles from cold at only 800rpm. I'd like to up that a bit but not at the expense of the warm idle being to high. But it does show the engine is so sorted that it's happy to start and idle at such a low rpm! There must be a few thousand owners who curse this engine. The knock-on effect is the ECU tries to correct the AFR but makes matters worse since adding fuel to the lean cylinder just makes the rich cylinder richer. This leads to the plugs fouling, owners then think it's the o2 sensors causing the problem and delete them, this does improve things a touch as the ECU is no longer grossly over-fueling one cylinder. However it is not treating the underlying cause. But a lot of owners quite like a lumpy idle so are happy enough to accept treating the symptom not the cause.

 
@iwilson lol, there is a very good reason the video is so similar. Let's just say it pays homage to yours.

Even without the dual band system you have, based on your description, you can review the issue occurring even just watching the gauges on the SX Car software with a locked ECU. You can watch the percentages run away and just get worse and worse.

The thing I find most interesting is when you look at other designs of throttle bodies. A good example is a Honda CBR500R. If you look at it's design, you can see that the IAC is built into the manifold so the "balance tube" between the cylinders is opened and closed when the IAC opens and closes. There are a number of Japanese manufacturers (I know, I know) using Keihin or Mikuni units that operate like this.

I'm only new on the forum and only owned the bike for a short period. I can only repeat what I've found, and that is that the change has transformed the way the bike idles and rides. Especially the transition from closed to light throttle.

I've also - as I mentioned earlier - purchased a Delta. I think there is room to improve the bike further, but by adding sensors rather than removing them. I'm keen to investigate what value adding a map sensor brings.
 
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Gojuu said:
There are a number of Japanese manufacturers (I know, I know) using Keihin or Mikuni units that operate like this.
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Yes, and let's hope if TVS decide to continue production for the 961, they switch to Keihin throttle bodies.
I know, less British content in the motorcycle, but more modern fueling, and operation.
Or TVS switch to the more modern EFI used on the V4 1200.
Either way, much less fiddling in the garage, more fun out on the road, where it counts.
 
BritTwit said:
Yes, and let's hope if TVS decide to continue production for the 961, they switch to Keihin throttle bodies.
I know, less British content in the motorcycle, but more modern fueling, and operation.
Or TVS switch to the more modern EFI used on the V4 1200.
Either way, much less fiddling in the garage, more fun out on the road, where it counts.
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I think Jenvey would have made Norton any design they wanted . But this is what happens when you build it down to a what's available off the shelf cheap . It's a shame really , because this could have been a really nice bike.
 
TonyA said:
I think Jenvey would have made Norton any design they wanted . But this is what happens when you build it down to a what's available off the shelf cheap . It's a shame really , because this could have been a really nice bike.
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Agreed.
Another critical error in judgement by SG.
Add it to the list.
 
BritTwit said:
Yes, and let's hope if TVS decide to continue production for the 961, they switch to Keihin throttle bodies.
I know, less British content in the motorcycle, but more modern fueling, and operation.
Click to expand...
For goodness sake lets at least let China make friggin parts ! What the hell is this holdup ? If your redesigning the bike or parts just say so ! Put it out on your web site , let us know good grief ! What if owners - one of the 2000 or so made need a part ? What , just wait for 2 years while we make up our friggin mind ?? If somebody actually needs a Norton Part , not an off the shelf , they, will be down hard ! Doesn't this crap just piss you off ??? And they want me to spend how much on a new bike ?
 
Yeah, I hope Dr Bob begins providing status updates soon on their plans going forward.
Will they be providing parts for the 961 going forward, or not.
Will they be continuing 961 production (other than the "promised 40"), or not.
 
See @TonyA & @BritTwit, I still don't think this is "Jenvey's fault" or because "it's not a Keihin". And it's not the cheap shelf. I'd argue that the Jenvey is actually a higher shelf.

(And if you really want a keihin, I don't actually know it's that hard to do. Laser cut plate from the template I have for the insulator, weld two tubes, connect two rubber tubes to something similar to the CBR500 unit, and you're away. The linkages are even in the right spot)

I think it's more likely a lack of testing. There was the design with no IAC and there is every chance that was a prototype that tested badly (cause it would have idled poorly), and they then included an IAC as the solution. So then there is another design with an IAC. Then they didn't test that enough.

Think about it. Taking nothing away from him, but if @iwilson can test it, find the error and so succinctly prove it, then so could Jenvey, Norton, SCS, or a lot of people on this forum if they had available equipment. They just didn't invest the time testing.

Based on the existence of the "next 40" bikes - call me optimistic - but I genuinely believe we will get parts from Norton.
 
Interesting:

2011 SE. Listed on Bonhams


Green injectors and no IAC.

EBAY Throttle Body
 
Gojuu said:
Interesting:

2011 SE. Listed on Bonhams


Green injectors and no IAC.

View attachment 84682
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I agree with what you said . I just meant cheap as in these are the throttle bodies we have (Jenvey) and if you (Norton) want this other feature It will cost more to make them (no thanks was the answer) . And I hope they (Norton) make parts etc , but why are they not being more helpful to us ?
When was the last time you received a communication from them ? I have not heard anything in many months , and I have an active order for parts with Norton (At least I used to). I think they are making a strategic error here is what I am saying. I have had Norton's back from the beginning . You are a new guy (961 owner) around here and your enthusiasm shows this. So keep up the good work and enjoy your new 961.
 
Hello,

I have asked Ollie for a used throttle body.
Carina (head of owner :-) /Ollie´s wife) has told me that are more then 20 in stock. (used and new)
Ollie has used them for some tests.
I was with Carina in the Norton warehouse, the are more than 10 000kg used and new spares.
Ollie´s engineers are always looking for improovments and how can the parts produced.
I saw on Ollies desk some different 961 clutches, all for testing.
The clutches where faster covered as I could realize what it was.
I hope Ollie will not go in retirement so fast, or only take care about his Corvette.
Panetone
 
TonyA said:
I agree with what you said . I just meant cheap as in these are the throttle bodies we have (Jenvey) and if you (Norton) want this other feature It will cost more to make them (no thanks was the answer) . And I hope they (Norton) make parts etc , but why are they not being more helpful to us ?
When was the last time you received a communication from them ? I have not heard anything in many months , and I have an active order for parts with Norton (At least I used to). I think they are making a strategic error here is what I am saying. I have had Norton's back from the beginning . You are a new guy (961 owner) around here and your enthusiasm shows this. So keep up the good work and enjoy your new 961.
Click to expand...
I got an email from them in both December and January. I know it doesn't mean much, and I'm sure many of you have many other emails, many times, but it's a start:

EBAY Throttle Body


EBAY Throttle Body
 
BritTwit said:
Yeah, I hope Dr Bob begins providing status updates soon on their plans going forward.
Will they be providing parts for the 961 going forward, or not.
Will they be continuing 961 production (other than the "promised 40"), or not.
Click to expand...
I am aware that they are looking at an improved rocker shaft/bushing and an update on the throttle body which does not fray the cables so there will be (improved) spares available. I still can't quite get anybody to be clear about why they are spending a lot of time and money ironing out problems on a model soon to be discontinued......
 
Clive said:
I am aware that they are looking at an improved rocker shaft/bushing and an update on the throttle body which does not fray the cables so there will be (improved) spares available. I still can't quite get anybody to be clear about why they are spending a lot of time and money ironing out problems on a model soon to be discontinued......
Click to expand...
Well, TVS is planning to produce 40 new 961's for buyers who had placed orders prior to Norton's collapse, so they may want to take care of a few known issues that they may believe could cause warranty problems on those machines.

But lets hope they intend to produce the 961 Commando going forward, at least in some form.
Perhaps a considerably modified form, with many systems being redesigned, not excluding the engine and it's systems.
Who knows what's really cooking at Norton/TVS.
 

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