Follower scar oil tests (2018)

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Not that I can find Jim. I assume this is their V twin oil?

There are sellers in the US on ebay who will ship to the U.K. though, a bit of a pain in the arse but doable if it’s THAT good...
 
Fast Eddie said:
Not that I can find Jim. I assume this is their V twin oil?

There are sellers in the US on ebay who will ship to the U.K. though, a bit of a pain in the arse but doable if it’s THAT good...
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I have never used it yet.
I used Klotz 2 stroke oil in my bikes back in the 70's and 80's
My brother in law used to swear by Klotz oil in his dirt track Triumphs.
It's also available in straight weights up through 70 Wt.
 
You gonna post the test results then Jim?

So, it seems that your testing has shown that a lot of 'good' modern oil is not up to the heat and pressure in our engines. Hence, the some of the V twin oils, design for the very hot running HDs (which must also have some very high pistons speeds at high revs) may well suit our engines.

The only 'catch' I can see is that these oils will likely be low zinc to be compatible with catalytic converters, and because the HDs have roller tappets they don't need that kind of protection.

So, perhaps, this is where one of the oil additives will come in to play?
 
Fast Eddie said:
You gonna post the test results then Jim?

So, it seems that your testing has shown that a lot of 'good' modern oil is not up to the heat and pressure in our engines. Hence, the some of the V twin oils, design for the very hot running HDs (which must also have some very high pistons speeds at high revs) may well suit our engines.

The only 'catch' I can see is that these oils will likely be low zinc to be compatible with catalytic converters, and because the HDs have roller tappets they don't need that kind of protection.

So, perhaps, this is where one of the oil additives will come in to play?
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I posted the results on post 678

All of the HD v-twin oils I have seen have had plenty of ZDDP.

HD still demands that in their engine oils although I am not convinced ZDDP needs to be present in high numbers.

http://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/oil_myths.pdf
 
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" I am not convinced ZDDP needs to be present in high numbers."

Me neither but selling it as an additive has been a very successful marketing technique!
 
comnoz said:
I have tried 9 different mixtures. I have posted the only two that had possibilities. No two that worked well were the same brand -so far.

So far the best has been the Bel Ray EXP with FR3 friction reducer.

I have some of the nano type friction reducer on order. [Everglide]
I am looking forward to testing that to see if it reduces the friction even further --without killing the load capacity like friction reducers tend to do.
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Jim, I'm still drawn to the Redline racing oil due to its 'lowest' friction and heat, and very high load (not the highest, but how much do we need?).

The mixture I had in mind was Redline 60w racing oil with 'just enough' Redline 20w60 to introduce 'enough' detergent into the mix.

Am I barking up the wrong tree?
 
Fast Eddie said:
Jim, I'm still drawn to the Redline racing oil due to its 'lowest' friction and heat, and very high load (not the highest, but how much do we need?).

The mixture I had in mind was Redline 60w racing oil with 'just enough' Redline 20w60 to introduce 'enough' detergent into the mix.

Am I barking up the wrong tree?
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I will give the mixture a try. Oil mixes don't always work well together.
I will post one shortly that I tried this morning that didn't work.
 
This is why oil companies and car companies do not recommend additives. There is no telling HOW an additive will actually react with the additive package already in the oil itself.
 
Here is why you shouldn't blindly mix oils
Two oils with very high film strength. I thought maybe I could lower the friction of the Klotz by adding a little Redline racing 60.
I mixed 100cc Klots with 25cc Redline.
Follower scar oil tests (2018)

152 lbs load
2.71 heat from high pressure shear
.005 heat from friction.
It did work to reduce the friction but the load capacity went away.
Maybe I should try 5%?
 
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comnoz said:
Maybe I should try 5%?
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Jim, I have the utmost respect for you and what you are doing, but you are going to drive yourself into an early grave at this rate. Surely there are endless permutations which may appear perfect on a test bed, but when subjected to heating\cooling cycles, moisture exposure etc. but may in future prove to be less than ideal.

I check this thread every day and look for you to say "I'm using this in future" or "this is the current leader." For me that's recommendation enough. And if after using the oil you recommend (which will have been proven to be a better choice by the results of your tests) I have some mechanical issue, i'm not going to draw up a lawsuit against you. For example I asked you to test the Motor Factory 20/50 and you have kindly tested it and found it to be less then ideal for a Norton, so I am already 100% wiser than I was when I went into the shop and bought it.

I recently learned a valuable cost / Vs inconvenience related lesson (this is car related so excuse me). I bought some cheap summer tyres, which in Switzerland only get used for 65 to 70% of the year, however fitting a set of tyres here costs $150 a set or thereabouts regardless. The cheap tyres were half what a quality set cost but were worn out in about 1.5 seasons, whereas quality tyres cost double, but last up to five maybe even six seasons. Had I continued with the cheaper brand I would have spent 3 times the tyre cost plus 3 times the fitting and inconvenience. What I'm trying to say is I'd go for a proven quality product every time now, as it will work out far less costly and inconvenient in the log run.


Cheers,

cliffa
 
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So there is no question. I am not planning on spending a lot of time on mixes and additives. Just mainly enough to satisfy my own curiosity and learn a few things.

But I am also looking for the best I can get for the new motor that is now assembled on my bench.
It has been a several year project with lots of time and money invested.
And I will give it the best protection I can get.

Oh, and I have talked to an oil chemist about mixtures. He said there was "no problem with mixing oils but the results may not be what you expect".

But as far as compatibility in the long run, if it works now, there is not likely to be a problem down the road.
 
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comnoz said:
So there is no question. I am not planning on spending a lot of time on mixes and additives. Just mainly enough to satisfy my own curiosity and learn a few things.

But I am also looking for the best I can get for the new motor that is now assembled on my bench.
It has been a several year project with lots of time and money invested.
And I will give it the best protection I can get.

Oh, and I have talked to an oil chemist about mixtures. He said there was "no problem with mixing oils but the results may not be what you expect".

But as far as compatibility in the long run, if it works now, there is not likely to be a problem down the road.
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Jim, it is kind of you to share your findings and the chemists point of view. No chance to get him signed up to Access Norton ? ;).

Love to see pics of this new motor. What is it?
 
cliffa said:
Jim, it is kind of you to share your findings and the chemists point of view. No chance to get him signed up to Access Norton ? ;).

Love to see pics of this new motor. What is it?
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I doubt he is interested in Nortons. I was rather surprised when I called and got to talk to someone.

What surprised me more was when I called MPT to talk to them about some of their oils and they directed me to the Access Norton list for test results...

I will post some motor details soon. Jim
 
You called them and they told you to ask some crazy guy on accessnorton who seems to know more than the we do about the oil that we manufacture!!!! You gotta laugh...

A long time ago, when Jeff Gordon was brand new to Nascar he began driving for Hendricks motorsport. I saw an interview with Rick Hendricks and he said when Gordon first drove the car they prepared for him he was telling the team of engineers how to change it to go faster... Gordon was a youngster who raced carts for year, so he had the "practical knowlege" but no education like these engineers did. They were pissed that this kid thought he knew more than they did. They made the changes the kid requested and the car's lap times were faster...

Theres no better way to learn than doing your own dirty work and testing yourself... No doubt professionals can give you great information, but I want to talk to the guy who performs the test...
 
Jim, the Millers coming out to you is a full synthetic nano additive oil, this is how it comes from Millers themselves, also rated to be used at 125 C and short periods at 150 C. Should be interesting.
 
oONortonOo said:
they told you to ask some crazy guy on accessnorton who seems to know more than the we do about the oil that we manufacture!!!!
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They recommended an independent test result to him.
 
From the results so far, it seems that it is more of case of 'avoid these oils' and the rest if used in the right climate and changed on a regular basis will suffice for the miles covered by many owners.

Other than Jim, and a very few others, the results are for oils that few have actually used for a period of years successfully, with engine strips to gauge the wear and condition of the parts. Next stage, the harder part is put the miles on the oil, we should all try and help in that respect. Jim is going for the best oil he can find and test, it is very possible that the road use of that oil may not deliver what was found in testing or be no better than an oil that that was found to be mid table in the testing, knowing Jim he will be well aware of this and watching for it.

Jim's best oil that he finds maybe absolutely no good for me when riding in the winter, if fact it could be worse than using a cheap thin oil. When all Jim's testing is done it would be nice to see the data put into a spreadsheet (maybe someone is already doing that from the graphs published) with top, mid, and avoid categories and the recommends for hot, cool and cold climate use.

Sadly there is much data out there, but the owners are not on the forum, many Commandos are still owned from new and one I know of has covered over 280K miles with the engine re-built every 80K miles, wonder what oil he uses?

Jim, Keep up the good work, it dispels a lot of the myths that have perpetuated in the past 40 years, Castrol GTX for an example, I know many who still use and swear by it here in the UK. And after 34 thread pages, not one person has queried the mineral / synthetic issue, I think the results you have published have firmly put that one to bed.
 
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