Going Racing

storm42 · May 9, 2019

SteveA said:
I wear glasses.....but they really aren't for distance....they help a bit with reading instruments, but I have a solution there, tacho is mounted so that at 'max power rpm' the needle is straight up!....so I happily leave them in the van when I put my race helmet on!

(Actually I put them alongside my hearing aids....just why is it when I take my hearing aids out, put in ear plugs and put on a helmet...somebody wants to talk to me?)

(And why does anybody think an old racer with a broken motorcycle will respond to a whistle blown by a race marshall? (corner worker) )

The pinlock visor insert is about the only thing that seems to work fully to stop visor misting, other than a velcro'd in neoprene face mask, which is really good,, better than your breath deflector and I suspect would solve the problem with the contacts...but more recently I found it becoming a bit claustrophobic and dicovered the pinlock....

I did use Bob Heath visor spray years ago, it does work better than nothing, but so does Fairly Liquid! Probably these two are the best idea for your glasses if you feel you have to wear them!

I am also enjoying the thread Ralph, but you are labouring under an illusion.....that things will ever become more relaxed! Every meeting has a hectic moment...every meeting uncovers something mechanical or logistical you never had before.....every meeting will get you at least one grumpy look from a lady who is only trying to be dutiful and helpful.....

Consider enlisting a helper that you don't habitually go home with after the event!

I sort of realised there will be sound differences from track to track and meter to meter but going from a closed end to an open one and getting quieter was a puzzle.

Looks like the bobbin problem is sorted so all good there.

I have a pinlock on the Arai and it is good but the Shark seems just as good without, don't know how they have done it but it works. The glasses have anti glare and anti scratch coatings and the optician told me it does make them prone to misting up and any anti mist compound doesn't last 2 mins. I once heard a chap ask for some of the Bob Heath stuff at a race meet years ago and the bloke behind him said, rub it with a cats arse lad, it'll work better than that stuff. It always makes me smile when I remember that advice, can you imagine the fuss the cat would make.

I heard Georgina (the wife) telling her mate I was late for the start because I am too laid back so maybe I need it to be a bit more hectic, and Georgina is a biker so and probably enjoys the excitement, she even had a spanner in her hands at Mallory when the exhaust came loose.

I am still looking at Chimay and Gedinne, it looks like I need to join a Belgium club to get an entry/licence, can you recommend one?

storm42 · May 9, 2019

Ashphalt Al said:
There you go Ralph , i just wish i had your oommpphh!

Thanks Al, it does seem to have some go in it doesn't it, it just had the legs on that GS1000 so quite happy with it. And on the subject of that GS, was he pissed? I hadn't noticed when you sent me the vid, but he nearly ran into you in the paddock didn't he?

See you at Darley, looks like the weather is picking up.

SteveA · May 9, 2019

storm42 said:
I am still looking at Chimay and Gedinne, it looks like I need to join a Belgium club to get an entry/licence, can you recommend one?

You don't need to. The one day licence fee in effect makes you a member of the CRMB as far as I can see. Certainly I have raced there twice without joining a club separately.

Because you are coming from the UK they will let you pay cash on the day as long as you have completed and emailed the documents by the deadline.

If in doubt, contact Miguel Parent, very helpful, they want your entry....

I might do it differently this year and use my French licence, costs an extra 45€ compared to a Belgian one event licence, but technically I get more insurance for that extra money.

SteveA · May 9, 2019

storm42 said:
...............I once heard a chap ask for some of the Bob Heath stuff at a race meet years ago and the bloke behind him said, rub it with a cats arse lad, it'll work better than that stuff. It always makes me smile when I remember that advice, can you imagine the fuss the cat would make.

My wife has just dosed one of our cats for worms....poor lad is in a bad way with it......you really don't want to go there...............

storm42 · May 9, 2019

Thanks Steve, I will look into it.

I suppose that as the idea is just to stop things misting up and not make them opaque, your cat wouldn't work....

SteveBorland · May 9, 2019

storm42 said:
Thanks Steve, I will look into it.

I suppose that as the idea is just to stop things misting up and not make them opaque, your cat wouldn't work....

Hmm, just wondering about the effects of the smell on ones concentration..... No, you really do not want to go there

acotrel · May 9, 2019

There is something I do not understand. How can motorcycle road racing be so big in the UK, yet it is disappearing in Australia ? You guys must also be exposed relatively, to similar insurance and infrastructure costs. I watch a few of Spike Edwards' videos - Brand's Hatch is bigger than Ben Hur. How can you afford that ? Are you all working two jobs ?

Bernhard · May 10, 2019

There was a time when we had full race grids, but due to recession it appears to happen less and less in Clubman’s racing that they now mix classes together. Also you must remember a lot, but not all of the tracks are former WW2 airfields, that were (or more likely not) resurfaced – but most have now been upgraded. Also this small island is densely populated, and people want to get their weekend kicks by riding on the racetrack in order to keep their driving licence clean!

SteveA · May 10, 2019

Race tracks are big business.....club racing isn't! Classic bikes are big business....so many in the business side of the market want product and skill exposure.

The track operators can earn more from trackdays. And riders have less of a competitive need than perhaps they did when I was 20, so riding the track is more important to many today than actually racing.

The downside of this is the risk of losing venues due to overuse and continuious noise. Before you say don't buy next to a race track consider a bit of noise from a single event a couple of days a week was one thing.....multiple events running at the venue every day is another...

Big race events like BSB give the brand exposure that draws the track day punters. BSB thrives, is very competitive and subsequently British riders are in demand at World Superbike championship level. Aussies ride in it to earn a living and follow the World championship dream.

I don't think we can accept that the club racing is thriving compared to how it was when we were young. I know people who rode two events each weekend for pretty much the whole season in the '70s, now you are down to max two events per month.

We have said before, racing a Norton twin with the biggest classic club in the UK is over, no one is entering, no one. The second of the national clubs is where Ralph and Al are riding and a few other Nortons. Sadly they are not well enough funded to run at the same venues all year, it isn't the same experience.

But it isn't just Norton twins, other classes are dying, being replaced by trashy old road bikes.

So no, the grass isn't greener.

acotrel · May 10, 2019

We had a couple of things change. Our national controlling body became a corporation, and insurance costs went through the roof. There is a lot which seems to have been taken for granted. The guys running the business seem to believe that money is no object, so the main income is derived from competitors - not gate takings. Promotion of events is almost nil. For the average guy, what used to be genuine road racing has become 'historic racing' which is made up of classes based upon date of machine manufacture. Personally I would much rather race in an open BOTT than any historic race. So for me the whole thing is a bit of a turn-off.
The last time I raced was about 8 years ago in a few historic races. It was OK, but the mindset was different. It is probably OK, as long as you don't know what racing really used to be like.

I was talking with my brother the other day. He is into historic speedway sidecars - said the whole thing has become absurd and there seems to be no way of changing it. He took five bikes to the Broadford Bonanza and raced them in what were supposed to be parades but were not. It cost him a bomb, but he was a person doing the entertaining for the paying customers.

acotrel · May 10, 2019

Speedway in Australia used to be under the Speedway Control Council. Motorcycling Australia took it over and the first thing to go was the start money. Friends of mine use to collect enough start money to buy a new Jawa every year. Then they used to sell the old one.
It used to be a promoter/employee/ union situation. Now it is something else. It makes me think that some of the provisions of our Trade Practices Act might apply.

pommie john · May 10, 2019

When I raced at chimay you had to get a “European A” license from the acu. It allows you to race at club events in Europe.
It was many years ago now so that may have changed.

Snotzo · May 11, 2019

SteveA said:
We have said before, racing a Norton twin with the biggest classic club in the UK is over, no one is entering, no one.

Steve
I would be interested in your views why the above situation has come about. Are Commando's no longer sufficiently competitive, is it too expensive to make them competitive, or are there simply not enough of them as compared with the 'trashy road bikes' that are filling the grids ?

I recall a certain SBR (Stanwell Buckman Racing) Commando from New Zealand coming to the UK, and thrashing the daylights out of the 'trashy road machines'. Granted they had permission to use methanol fuel, and were not allowed to receive either prize money, or gain points, but the general opinion at the time was had they been using race gas instead of methanol, the results would still have been the same.

For those who witnessed these races, there was surely proof enough that a suitably prepared Commando was more than capable of handling all the opposition could produce.

When Gary Thwaites was racing the Watson Commando, he also regularly trounced the opposition.
The apparent lack of current interest would seem somewhat difficult to understand

storm42 · May 11, 2019

I would guess money is always going to be a problem, it is for me.

There is also the change in the competitor due to age, I have had a Norton Commando for 44/45 years and at 62 I suppose I am a bit old to be starting racing but as I am, then some kind of Norton twin is the obvious choice for me although I would really love a Manx.

A quick walk round the paddock shows the competition to be mostly younger and as such, wether they are new or seasoned racers, the bikes they want to race come from a different era.

As the older competitors faded away and the bikes became valuable investments and better than money in the bank, the Classic and Vintage clubs struggled to make ends meet due to lack of entries and the cost of track hire spiralling. The BHR decided to support scooter racing, much to the annoyance of some, but they are wrong as the scooter racing is good to watch and popular to the point of full grids, they have gone a long way to allowing the BHR to carry on.

The CRMC don't have scooters racing but they too have had to move with the times and later bikes are now common place and are what a lot of the age demographic are interested in racing, those of us that might be a bit stuck in the past, might not care for the way things are going but without change it would all end.

Like Steve said it is all the classes that are suffering, apart from seemingly the singles, and I would guess the reason for that could also be down to money too. If you have money and are prepared to spend £30/35,000 on a "classic" race bike, would you want what is basically a tarted up road bike or a replica GP racer like a Manx, G50 or 7R, those bikes still have a fan base that spans generations and even the younger competitors know what they are and want to race them.

As far as racing is concerned, our age group is done, we are out of date.

And as for SBR, I saw them race that thing at Cadwell and it wasn't just the bike, the rider was very very good, I think I heard that he beat Lee Hodge in one race and Lee gave up his prize money saying that he was beaten fair and square, the bike was a very nice piece of kit though.

acotrel · May 11, 2019

storm42 said:
I would guess money is always going to be a problem, it is for me.

There is also the change in the competitor due to age, I have had a Norton Commando for 44/45 years and at 62 I suppose I am a bit old to be starting racing but as I am, then some kind of Norton twin is the obvious choice for me although I would really love a Manx.

A quick walk round the paddock shows the competition to be mostly younger and as such, wether they are new or seasoned racers, the bikes they want to race come from a different era.

As the older competitors faded away and the bikes became valuable investments and better than money in the bank, the Classic and Vintage clubs struggled to make ends meet due to lack of entries and the cost of track hire spiralling. The BHR decided to support scooter racing, much to the annoyance of some, but they are wrong as the scooter racing is good to watch and popular to the point of full grids, they have gone a long way to allowing the BHR to carry on.

The CRMC don't have scooters racing but they too have had to move with the times and later bikes are now common place and are what a lot of the age demographic are interested in racing, those of us that might be a bit stuck in the past, might not care for the way things are going but without change it would all end.

Like Steve said it is all the classes that are suffering, apart from seemingly the singles, and I would guess the reason for that could also be down to money too. If you have money and are prepared to spend £30/35,000 on a "classic" race bike, would you want what is basically a tarted up road bike or a replica GP racer like a Manx, G50 or 7R, those bikes still have a fan base that spans generations and even the younger competitors know what they are and want to race them.

As far as racing is concerned, our age group is done, we are out of date.

And as for SBR, I saw them race that thing at Cadwell and it wasn't just the bike, the rider was very very good, I think I heard that he beat Lee Hodge in one race and Lee gave up his prize money saying that he was beaten fair and square, the bike was a very nice piece of kit though.

What a lot of young guys do not realise, is the reason us old guys have classic bikes is we had them back then and never sold them. To me, My Seeley 850 is just a bike, but if I take it to a meeting, the kids are all over it. What really surprises me is how competitive it actually is, because I never believed in it. I simply built it because I got hold of the Seeley rolling chassis and the MK3 frame was designed for a Commando engine. It was a surprisingly easy build. All I really had to do was cut out a set of engine plates and make a strut for the front. These days, if you had a motor and gearbox, you could probably build it for about $10,000. If you could not get a Seeley frame, a Rickman or a Harris or a Rob North would probably be just as good - as long as you got the steering geometry right. The frame rake is largely irrelevant - anything can be made to work by altering the fork yokes and the rear shocks.
I was in a shop a while back and saw a Rickman frame for $600. Have look through the wreckers and the sheds of some of the older racing guys.

acotrel · May 11, 2019

There is one frame which I have not seen used for housing a Commando engine. It is the Royal Enfield frame. Back in about 1970, there was a guy called Hans Koch who campaigned a Triumph engine in an Enfield frame and won a lot of races in Victoria.

Moto55UK · May 11, 2019

When I Started racing in 1976 on my Road Bike 850 Commando the grids where full of Nortons ( happy days), kawasaki 900's were fast but wobbled a lot and the triples were not as fast as they are now so the competition was good , Nowadays the Kawasakis are even faster and handle!
Ive been following Ralphs posts with interest, and I have to agree that sadly the days of classic racing Norton twins if not numbered are over , I have been campaigning my commando based racer for the last six years and for the most have been the only one or at best one of three commando based race bikes . Last year I went to 3 CRMC race meetings and although Rob North 3's were in abundance again i was the Lone Norton on the grid, whilst clearly noticing the rise of the post classic machines .Charging around at the back against a field of 4 cylinder superbikes makes you think its not worth the effort !
I'm now looking forward to this next weekend and the BHRC at Darley Moor where I Know there will be other fellow Norton riders !

See you at Darley Ralph and Al.

SteveA · May 12, 2019

Moto55UK said:
...........Charging around at the back against a field of 4 cylinder superbikes makes you think its not worth the effort !

Ron.....the above is a factor.....it does wear you down when the big multis get in your way in the bends and then just move away in a straight line...only to go through the same thing lap after lap...

That and the popularity of Rob North replicas...with both 750 and 930 motors....that have a huge performance advantage, replica parts have introduced some new tweeks, and the North frame/swinging arm is able to make good use of bigger tyres. They just didn't have all that in the '70s.

When we raced back in the day it was 501 to 1000 class and it didn't matter if you had a 750 or 850 Norton, the 850 generally only had an edge exiting corners. Apart from the works bikes the 750 Triumphs of the day were too bulky to have any real advantage and Norton tuning bits were easier to get/affordable. A good Norton twin in a lighter weight chassis did the trick.

Opening the bigger class up to 1300cc has been negative. At one point eveyone who considered a Norton felt it had to be 1007, because it could be. More expense because it needed to be built as a 1007 from scratch. And in the 750 class the Triumph became plentiful and difficult to beat! I think th efact that you can't really tell a 750 from a 930 put people off as well, not saying anyone was cheating, just acknowledging that they could. In Europe there are more 750s and also more 750 Hondas and fewer Rob North Trumphs.

Gary is an exceptional rider that made Watson's bikes, albeit very good in both capacities, look perhaps better than they were.

But in truth I think we have hit an age thing! A lot of riders/owners coming into classics have nostalgia for mid '80s bikes, and to be fair, '60s bikes (Norton and Matchless singles) are going round for the 2nd time, with people having nostalgic views of the early days of classic racing, rather than just the actual period racing!

An important factor in classic racing at the moment is the growing popularity of late '70s early '80s Yamaha two stroke twins! That is where a lot of sponsorship money is going, and the bikes are not racing with CRMC but ICGP and the likes!

acotrel · May 12, 2019

A good class for Norton twins would a BOTT with an upper capacity of 1000cc for air-cooled motors only. There are plenty of old bikes and modern which would fit very well into such a race class. People could play with those V-twin Hondas, Yamahas and Suzukis, and do some decent development. I'd like to race my Seeley 850 against 1000cc Harley Sportsters. Air-cooled Ducatis might be a problem, but none are four-valve.

acotrel · May 12, 2019

About 750cc Triumphs. My friend has a 650cc Triton which I raced my 500cc short stroke Triton against for may years. I could never convincingly beat him. Then one day I rode his bike at Calder Raceway and blew a very good H2 Kawasaki two-stroke to the weeds. His bike has a five speed Triumph gearbox with standard internal ratios. If the top four ratios were closer, his bike would be even faster. He has built a 750cc motor for his bike, but has returned to using the 650cc motor. With bikes, as you go smaller in motor size, the bike usually becomes lighter. As long as the race class capacity limit is 1000cc, the playing field is fairly level - providing the motor types are similar.
Racing an air-cooled four-stroke twin against two-strokes and four-cylinder bikes, is not smart stuff. It proves nothing and achieves nothing.

Going Racing

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