Most electrical issues are Lucas related

MexicoMike · Jan 25, 2019

I agree. I have some Chinese tools that are as good as any tools you will find. BUT...they were not particularly cheap. Using the Chinese as an example, they can produce parts as good as anybody can but suppliers often buy the cheapest Chinese parts that will (hopefully) manage to do the job as opposed to paying more for better quality parts.

998cc · Jan 25, 2019

worntorn said:
I replaced Lucas points with Japanese Daichi points because the Lucas points had done about 20,000 miles, which was the most I ever managed to get from US made auto points in the 70s.
The Daichi points failed in 300 miles so the old Lucas points went back in and worked fine for at least another 10k.
Finally I managed to locate some NOS Lucas points and installed those, although it wasn't necessary.
I kept the old Lucas points as they are still working fine. I've now put away 4 sets of NOS Lucas points for that bike, so that'll more than see me out.
The Lucas points are the highest quality ignition points I've ever encountered and we used to install lots of different ignition points, made in the US , Germany and Japan.

I have also had a couple of Lucas copy ignition switches fail.

During my current Vincent rebuild, I ordered a new set of points for the Lucas DKX2A distributor. One look at the new points, and the old (early 80's) points were touched up and put back in!

~998cc

Hortons Norton · Jan 25, 2019

When I refreshed my MkIII I thought of buying a new set of the Sparx switch gear, but I had a bad experience with their electronic ignition and didn't want to go through that again.

So I decided to pull them apart and see what I could do, the main reason for this was not that they were giving me trouble but they didn't look very good. The right side at some point had brake fluid on it and the paint was bad, the left side looked kinda ok. So I pulled them apart to see if I could get everything in there out so I could paint them. Well what I found was they are very easy to get apart and are made in my opinion very well, only problem was getting the 40 some year old grease off.

But once I stripped and painted them I was really amazed at how simple and easy they are to put back together. Glad I did as now I know they should be good for some time now. I guess i'm lucky as I have never had problems with Mr.Joe Lucas, lol lol.

Changaroo · Jan 25, 2019

I find points will last a long time if the condenser is good. A bad condenser will ruin a set of points fairly quickly.
With ignition switches, it is poor practice to have a bunch of other keys and a heavy tag on the ignition key ring. Only the ignition key on a single ring with no tag or other keys on the ring should be used. If you don't believe me, try both with the engine idling and you will see that a bunch of keys will shake the lock to pieces in no time flat.

kerinorton · Jan 26, 2019

You hear Prince of Darkness stories all the time. Sure, when Nortons were new, the lights on those bike were not a patch on what is available now. The only electrical problems I have had have been with my 850. I have had to strip and clean my indicator switch and ignition switch. Both 43 and 44 years old at the time of failure. Both working fine now and will outlast me. When I had an H4 unit with a good 60 watt bulb, it was a better headlamp than a late model 1000 cc Moto Guzzi. I new run a LED unit. I had to chuck my Boyer out a few years ago and fitted a std Pazon. Better performance than the Boyer, but the Boyer was how old? One of the locals here used to work for the Lotus racing team a long time ago and swore by the Lucas systems used in those top level racing cars. They didn't have any problems with them.
And yes Alcotel. I will stick with my moto.

I salute you sir. Wish you could see it.

Dereck

acotrel · Jan 26, 2019

worntorn said:
Then why did my made in Japan, expensive Daichi points fail in 300 miles while the old Lucas points lasted beyond 30,000?
Doesn't sound like" doing it right the first time"
I think as with anything quality depends on the company, not the country of origin.

I keep looking at my two new Triumphs, one made in England, one in Thailand. Both are of excellent quality.

Glen

With products from Asian countries, metallurgy is rarely a strong point. Japanese is usually better than Chinese or Indian. This is the problem - you usually cannot see quality. Both a sixties Rolls-Royce and a Mini-Minor are 'fit for purpose' - the difference lies in attention to detail. That factor is not included in the ISO9000 definition which is the basis of most free trade agreements. You just do not throw away as many Rolls-Royces as you do Mini-Minors. In the 70s, there was a GATT meeting in Brazil about preventing quality issue becoming barriers to trade. However quality is the only basis upon which most western democracies can compete. Most have a highly qualified, well paid workforce - which to be efficiently applied must concentrate on the top of the market. However most people in western democracies are happy to buy cheap shit. So the Asian countries win. Almost all of my machine tools are Chinese - if they break, they are cheap to replace. I would love to own an old British lathe and drill press. But the Chinese ones still do the job until they give up.

SteveA · Jan 26, 2019

Most electrical issues are poor connection related!

jbruney · Jan 26, 2019

All of my issues with Lucas electrics have been poor connections or a failed switch due to neglect on my 46 year old bike. Honestly I don't understand all of the complaints I've heard through the years when most are probably caused by simple owner neglect from my perspective. Every manufacturer tosses out the occasional faulty piece... Just my take because I've been fortunate enough to have gotten very good service from mine....Also have had failures of components from HD & Honda and not grabbed a rope looking for the nearest stout tree.

Triton Thrasher · Jan 27, 2019

worntorn said:
Then why did my made in Japan, expensive Daichi points fail in 300 miles while the old Lucas points lasted beyond 30,000?
Doesn't sound like" doing it right the first time"

Glen

Because there was a comeback on Lucas if the points in a new bike didn’t last the guarantee.

A Far East factory supplying us bozos nowadays may think they can get off with selling an inferior product. It’s one of the reasons electronic ignition is a popular modification.

I should say, though, that back in the 1970s, I found that nylon-heeled Lucas points needed weekly adjustment. Production racers had difficulty getting them to stay consistent for a whole race. Boyers’ tuning leaflet recommended fitting older tufnol heels to new points.

brokeneagle · Jan 27, 2019

Hortons Norton said:
When I refreshed my MkIII I thought of buying a new set of the Sparx switch gear, but I had a bad experience with their electronic ignition and didn't want to go through that again.

So I decided to pull them apart and see what I could do, the main reason for this was not that they were giving me trouble but they didn't look very good. The right side at some point had brake fluid on it and the paint was bad, the left side looked kinda ok. So I pulled them apart to see if I could get everything in there out so I could paint them. Well what I found was they are very easy to get apart and are made in my opinion very well, only problem was getting the 40 some year old grease off.

But once I stripped and painted them I was really amazed at how simple and easy they are to put back together. Glad I did as now I know they should be good for some time now. I guess i'm lucky as I have never had problems with Mr.Joe Lucas, lol lol.

I bought a left Sparks switchgear when the clutch handle perch broke on my original and couldn't round up a used or NOS. I saved the broken one luckily, as after about a year I had to put the guts of the original Lucas into the Sparks housing. The Thickness of the turn signal switch was about half the thickness of the Lucas and was beginning to twist and stick.

concours · Jan 27, 2019

jbruney said:
All of my issues with Lucas electrics have been poor connections or a failed switch due to neglect on my 46 year old bike. Honestly I don't understand all of the complaints I've heard through the years when most are probably caused by simple owner neglect from my perspective. Every manufacturer tosses out the occasional faulty piece... Just my take because I've been fortunate enough to have gotten very good service from mine....Also have had failures of components from HD & Honda and not grabbed a rope looking for the nearest stout tree.

Because there are a lot of people who do not understand, or are afraid of the mysterious "electrickery". So, they fabricate, or draw conclusions, based on what they think is the truth.
The bullet connectors fracturing, through NO TRAUMA, INSIDE the rubber, hidden from view, creating a litany of variable high resistance connections, that change like the wind with vibration, have been (IMWO) the fuel behind the horrid reputation behind Lucas bits.
I first learned of it on this site, I've since magically made Triumph headlights work using only a toothpick jammed inside the rubber, etc. Trying to spread the word.
Every day I work on machinery, electrical connections fractured like that are a show stopper.

Jackson5 · Jan 28, 2019

I worked in a Yamaha/ BSA shop in the late 60's and early 70's. There was a tech guy from BSA/Triumph from England that would show up from England from time to time. Right around the Sacramento 20 mile national time. We would tease him about some of the quality parts that the British put on their cars and motorcycles, Amal and Lucas was brought up often. And pointed out the Switches and lights that always seemed to work on the Yamahas. He knew the issues. He once told me that BSA/Triumph spent 30 Pounds on the entire electrical system. That included the chrome headlamp and the tail lamp casting. That was about $45 at the time. The Japanese spent $10 more and got better stuff.

Jackson5 · Jan 28, 2019

acotrel said:
Magnet Marelli is better than Prince of Darkness ? - The Japanese and German mentality is 'do it right first time', - NOT 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'. When Lucas was supplying to the British car and motorcycle industries, they could all supply any kind of shit and still make a profit - they had a captive audience . These days we have free trade - no tariff protection, so if quality is poor, manufacturers cannot compete. Reputation and repeat business are about product and service quality. Even the Chinese are about to find that out. The problem the British have is that a Royal Enfield from India is probably better than any which ever came from England. I used to work in a large engineering factory which had every part of the old British manufacturing system. - 'When they were good, they were very very good and when they were bad they were horrid'.

It wasn't that Lucas couldn't make better stuff. They could and did. They made stuff for the aircraft industry. The British were amazingly cheap. They could have spent more money and got better quality stuff from Lucas. Remember when Amal monoblocks came with chrome plated brass slides? Amal told the British motorcycle makers they could save one dollar if they didn't take the chrome plated brass slide. So in 6 months your Amal Concentric was worn out.

acotrel · Jan 29, 2019

What the British manufacturers are capable of and what they do, might be two different things. In the factories in which I worked, we could achieve the highest quality standards, but it was never the norm. If you wanted that, it required individual attention from above. It is a matter of mindset and motivation - with the Japanese, the controls are internalised. With the Germans, quality seems to be related to national pride. There is also another aspect - the Germans seem to be happy to work with their unions cooperatively.

worntorn · Jan 29, 2019

I remember Japanese quality from the late 60s, early 70s
I had a quite a good after school and weekends business going doing top end rebuilds on Japanese bikes. The bikes were everywhere because they were cheap. They were quite reliable for a short while when new, but wore out very quickly.
By 10,000 miles most had big compression loss and were using oil.
I dry honed the bores, lapped the valves and installed new rings.
This would get the bike another 5-6000 miles down the road at which point it was best to get rid of it and start with another cheap new bike.
My main ride at the time was a Norton Es2 which needed and got the same treatment as the Hondas. The difference was the ES2 had 30,000 miles on the ODO and this was the first time since new that the head had been off.
Also, the new rings lasted longer than 5 or 6000. A lot longer.
People remember those old Japanese bikes as being a lot better than they really were.

Glen

Danno · Jan 29, 2019

That's true. I remember my 1100 Suzuki's stator and rectifier problems. And my buddy's 1100 Yamaha had two sets of points on a moving plate connected to two little wires that would get brittle and break and then no spark. Honda's large and small could develop insurmountable carb problems. Mechanics were scrapping clogged Gold Wing carbs rather than attempt to unclog them.

Triton Thrasher · Jan 29, 2019

Jackson5 said:
It wasn't that Lucas couldn't make better stuff. They could and did. They made stuff for the aircraft industry. The British were amazingly cheap. They could have spent more money and got better quality stuff from Lucas. Remember when Amal monoblocks came with chrome plated brass slides? Amal told the British motorcycle makers they could save one dollar if they didn't take the chrome plated brass slide. So in 6 months your Amal Concentric was worn out.

I remember unplated zinc Monobloc slides that wore razor-thin and bits came off the bottom edge.

kerinorton · Jan 29, 2019

Glen its funny you should mention how long the jap bikes didn't last. I remember helping a mate put rings in his Goldwing 1000. The bike went really well for a while but I think I remember it didn't last that long. I could always blow him away on my 750 any time though.
I worked in the automotive field for a long time and never did think Japanese cars were any good after a recondition. They were good while they lasted [ from new ] and lasted a very long time compared to brit car.

Once you overheated them they were stuffed though. H on the temp gauge didn't mean hot, it meant "had it".

Dereck

worntorn · Jan 29, 2019

1970s Toyota Corolla 1900 had an engine life expectancy of about 50k then get rid of it.
The aluminium heads cracked and then cracked some more.
There was good reason for the saying " Japanese Junk"
But did they ever turn it around later on.
Glen

cliffa · Jan 29, 2019

worntorn said:
1970s Toyota Corolla 1900 had an engine life expectancy of about 50k then get rid of it.
The aluminium heads cracked and then cracked some more.
There was good reason for the saying " Japanese Junk"
But did they ever turn it around later on.
Glen

A 1960's Vauxhall had a life expectancy of about 50 Miles. If it rained while it was parked up ( i.e. broken down) it would shed half it's body weight down the nearest drain.

Most electrical issues are Lucas related

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