Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump)
- Thread starter Bernhard
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Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
No experience of this one Bernhard, but very satisfied with one anti-drain device made by Andrew Dove in the UK.
Is consists of a tap that is closed or opened manually and which is coupled to the ignition circuit (preventing you from not opening the tap).
Let me know if you want his details (cost was 45 £ 2 yeard ago).
No experience of this one Bernhard, but very satisfied with one anti-drain device made by Andrew Dove in the UK.
Is consists of a tap that is closed or opened manually and which is coupled to the ignition circuit (preventing you from not opening the tap).
Let me know if you want his details (cost was 45 £ 2 yeard ago).
Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
When I stripped my bike down, I removed this exact model from the oil line... I couldn't believe how heavy the spring and ball bearing arrangement is, and I was very concerned about the restriction to flow, bearing in mind our oil pumps are not over specced anyway.
Needless to say, I am not rebuilding the bike with this valve inline.
I am instead using a manually operated ball valve, with a micro-switch attached to the electrics to stop me (or anyone else) from forgetting to open the valve before I set off.
I need something, as the bike will be sat for long periods of time without use, and my engine is particularly prone to wet sumping. If I was using it as a daily ride, I wouldn't bother with any valve at all.
When I stripped my bike down, I removed this exact model from the oil line... I couldn't believe how heavy the spring and ball bearing arrangement is, and I was very concerned about the restriction to flow, bearing in mind our oil pumps are not over specced anyway.
Needless to say, I am not rebuilding the bike with this valve inline.
I am instead using a manually operated ball valve, with a micro-switch attached to the electrics to stop me (or anyone else) from forgetting to open the valve before I set off.
I need something, as the bike will be sat for long periods of time without use, and my engine is particularly prone to wet sumping. If I was using it as a daily ride, I wouldn't bother with any valve at all.
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Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
Hi
Here's the best solution I've seen
Vidar
http://www.hollandnortonworks.eu/?lang=NL&page=4
Hi
Here's the best solution I've seen
Vidar
http://www.hollandnortonworks.eu/?lang=NL&page=4
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Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
+1 on the Holland NW valve. It works great. I don't even think about it but I do keep an eye on my oil gauge.
vidar hjelm johansen said:
+1 on the Holland NW valve. It works great. I don't even think about it but I do keep an eye on my oil gauge.
Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
My experience with a spring loaded check valve similar to this one was that at idle the pump didn't have enough suction to overcome the spring pressure and oil pressure dropped to zero. I even tried cutting a few coils from the spring. Still no good at idle. I pitched that sucker under the bench. I would never put anything but a hose between the oil tank and oil pump. Regardless what kind of contraption used to stop wet sumping, a gauge is a must.
My experience with a spring loaded check valve similar to this one was that at idle the pump didn't have enough suction to overcome the spring pressure and oil pressure dropped to zero. I even tried cutting a few coils from the spring. Still no good at idle. I pitched that sucker under the bench. I would never put anything but a hose between the oil tank and oil pump. Regardless what kind of contraption used to stop wet sumping, a gauge is a must.
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Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
Just kick it through a few times before you switch the key on. Better still put a reed valve on your crankcase breather.
Just kick it through a few times before you switch the key on. Better still put a reed valve on your crankcase breather.
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Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
+1
comnoz said:Oh boy.
+1
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Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
It seems many who oppose an anti-sump ball valve, have two reasons:
1) the obvious one....the danger of starting the engine with the valve shut,
2) the lessor reason seems to be, the reduction in bore of the oil supply line by a ball valve & fittings may lead to oil starvation.
The first is easily addressed with a switch as several have posted on this forum.
Allow me to address the second reason.....has anybody measured the diameter of the hole in the manifold block where the oil lines enter the timing chest? Or for that matter, the bore diameter of the port to the oil pump in the timing chest? On my Atlas, these diameters are 0.187 inches....maybe they are larger on a Cdo, but I reckon not. I have had a bronze gascock in the oil supply line for nearly all of the 85K miles on the Atlas. This gascock has a clear bore of 0.200 inches, and I have had no problems. The ID of the oil supply tubing is 0.225 inches, and therefore a 1/4 inch ball valve could be fitted in the oil supply line with no reduction in oil transport capacity.
It seems many who oppose an anti-sump ball valve, have two reasons:
1) the obvious one....the danger of starting the engine with the valve shut,
2) the lessor reason seems to be, the reduction in bore of the oil supply line by a ball valve & fittings may lead to oil starvation.
The first is easily addressed with a switch as several have posted on this forum.
Allow me to address the second reason.....has anybody measured the diameter of the hole in the manifold block where the oil lines enter the timing chest? Or for that matter, the bore diameter of the port to the oil pump in the timing chest? On my Atlas, these diameters are 0.187 inches....maybe they are larger on a Cdo, but I reckon not. I have had a bronze gascock in the oil supply line for nearly all of the 85K miles on the Atlas. This gascock has a clear bore of 0.200 inches, and I have had no problems. The ID of the oil supply tubing is 0.225 inches, and therefore a 1/4 inch ball valve could be fitted in the oil supply line with no reduction in oil transport capacity.
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Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
Agree! I would not use a spring loaded automatic valve either.
Slick
comnoz said:
Agree! I would not use a spring loaded automatic valve either.
Slick
Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
If this is true in what you say, the manufactures’ haven’t grasped the principle, i.e.
That spring would have to be of very, very weak poundage, it would only need to hold the ball bearing seated against the seat to seal, and this is single round bearing immersed in oil so; in effect it is almost weightless.
When you got the kit did it come with instructions to prime with oil below the valve :?:
If this is true in what you say, the manufactures’ haven’t grasped the principle, i.e.
That spring would have to be of very, very weak poundage, it would only need to hold the ball bearing seated against the seat to seal, and this is single round bearing immersed in oil so; in effect it is almost weightless.
When you got the kit did it come with instructions to prime with oil below the valve :?:
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Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
A ball valve with an opening the same size as the ID of the hose would be fine as far as doing the job IF it is really felt that the job needs to be done. Obviously there is the possibility of forgetting to open the valve but aircraft have been using "red flags" for a hundred years for critical items so I suppose that's one way. A ball valve with an ignition interconnect would be ok I guess though having yet another potential wiring/connection issue on a Norton is not particularly appealing. OTOH, it would be easy to bypass if it caused any problem.
I admit I don't see the need for a valve and my Commando wet sumps like all the rest. But I have learned that this is one of those issues that everyone does what they are comfortable doing.
A ball valve with an opening the same size as the ID of the hose would be fine as far as doing the job IF it is really felt that the job needs to be done. Obviously there is the possibility of forgetting to open the valve but aircraft have been using "red flags" for a hundred years for critical items so I suppose that's one way. A ball valve with an ignition interconnect would be ok I guess though having yet another potential wiring/connection issue on a Norton is not particularly appealing. OTOH, it would be easy to bypass if it caused any problem.
I admit I don't see the need for a valve and my Commando wet sumps like all the rest. But I have learned that this is one of those issues that everyone does what they are comfortable doing.
Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
Yes, it was well primed. I ran with the valve for a couple of weeks, daily. I got sick of seeing zero oil pressure at idle with hot oil.
The pump is designed to be gravity fed. With a check valve in the input line the pump must provide enough suction to overcome the pressure of the spring to receive oil. In my case, there wasn't enough suction at idle to overcome the spring pressure.
Yes, it was well primed. I ran with the valve for a couple of weeks, daily. I got sick of seeing zero oil pressure at idle with hot oil.
The pump is designed to be gravity fed. With a check valve in the input line the pump must provide enough suction to overcome the pressure of the spring to receive oil. In my case, there wasn't enough suction at idle to overcome the spring pressure.
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850cmndo
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Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
I can tell you what happens when one of these things acts up...all hell breaks loose. I had one with the sight glass freeze up. I was at speed at night in traffic with my eye off the oil pressure gauge (backlit no less). Next thing I know it just shuts down. On the shoulder I restarted it and the sound wasn't pretty. Limped in with it and later pulled it down. Left piston gone. Rebuild showed no damage to bottom end so I dodged a bullet. Wouldn't touch one of these things again. Engine can sump all it wants.
bill said:I have been keeping mouth shut on this bodge also. some people have NO clue as to the potential trouble these things present.
comnoz said:Oh boy.
I can tell you what happens when one of these things acts up...all hell breaks loose. I had one with the sight glass freeze up. I was at speed at night in traffic with my eye off the oil pressure gauge (backlit no less). Next thing I know it just shuts down. On the shoulder I restarted it and the sound wasn't pretty. Limped in with it and later pulled it down. Left piston gone. Rebuild showed no damage to bottom end so I dodged a bullet. Wouldn't touch one of these things again. Engine can sump all it wants.
N
nortonspeed
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Re: Norton Anti Drain Check Valve (for engines that Wet Sump
Some pretty wild stories go around about anti wet sump valves. Any Norton will wet sump, depending the condition of your oil pump it will go slow or fast. Fitting an anti wet sump valve does not have to result in disaster. If you decide to fit an automatic valve make sure your oil pump is in good condition (40 to 60 psi hot). The problem of most spring loaded valves is that the spring is loaded way too strong. The valve should have a spring load as light as possible to minimize resistance but just strong enough to stop the oil sumping. I have tested several valves over the years on my Commando and the valve that comes closest to this specification is the oil tank valve as also mentioned by Vidar and Anglophile earlier in this thread. No oil pressure drop at any rpm. I have used this valve now for over 30.000 mls (I also have fitted a pressure gauge) and will continue to use it until someone comes up with an even better one :!:
Some pretty wild stories go around about anti wet sump valves. Any Norton will wet sump, depending the condition of your oil pump it will go slow or fast. Fitting an anti wet sump valve does not have to result in disaster. If you decide to fit an automatic valve make sure your oil pump is in good condition (40 to 60 psi hot). The problem of most spring loaded valves is that the spring is loaded way too strong. The valve should have a spring load as light as possible to minimize resistance but just strong enough to stop the oil sumping. I have tested several valves over the years on my Commando and the valve that comes closest to this specification is the oil tank valve as also mentioned by Vidar and Anglophile earlier in this thread. No oil pressure drop at any rpm. I have used this valve now for over 30.000 mls (I also have fitted a pressure gauge) and will continue to use it until someone comes up with an even better one :!:
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