Production Racer - Need Reference Bike

YellowPeril said:
I have a 1971 Production Racer (genuine, not a replica) . . . who has an original that would be willing to let me go over it to determine what is correct for mine? I'm missing a few other odds and ends that I'd like to get right rather than cobbling things together. Thanks!
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Hi, not sure where you are located, but I would suggest reaching out to the NYC Norton shop. His garage mate, has I believe 5 or 6 of them, all original, real deal, and unrestored. I'm sure they're all for the cause of what you're trying to accomplish with your freshen up/restoration, and would probably be a valuable source.

best of luck, and I wish I was in your position.

Production Racer - Need Reference Bike
 
fork yokes: I read yesterday somewhere that special yokes were fitted, presumably different offset.
For a replica build, were both the older Atlas and the bigger Commando type used over the production run of the PR?
 
jan nelder said:
fork yokes: I read yesterday somewhere that special yokes were fitted, presumably different offset.
For a replica build, were both the older Atlas and the bigger Commando type used over the production run of the PR?
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I don't know about the earliest PRs, but my '71 had standard Commando yokes.

Ken
 
Much of the above relates to Norvil racers - Kuhn did not race Norvil production bikes, a subtle difference, so it would be better put back to Kuhn spec and style. He raced Kuhn production racers. The OP bike has to be bike number 1, as we have bike number 2 which will be at Stafford this month. We wondered where the other bike bike ended up, we know a lot about the two bikes and the riders, but cannot say categorically who rode what bike when.
I suggest the OP gets in touch with me at AN as we have a lot of history on the two bikes. Just because parts are 'missing' could be because they were never there in the first place.
As for parts we are having the same problem, as the bikes are unique and fitted with parts that are not in the Kuhn catalogue of the day, this can be seen from the photos online, these are Kuhn racers not replica's, they never saw a track as a Norvil racer either.
 
jan nelder said:
I was referring to the actual racers, not necessarily the ones sold to the public.
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Now you have me confused, Jan. This thread is all about the Commando Production Racer, or PR. You asked "...were both the older Atlas and the bigger Commando type used over the production run of the PR?" So "production run" would seem to refer to the 200 or so Commando Production Racers that were built and mostly sold to the public. Many of those were used for racing, so were "actual racers". A few were even used as factory race bikes. When you say "actual racers", which bikes are you referring to? If you are referring to other works racers, like the John Player F750 specials in 1971 - 1974 (conventional, Monocoque, and birdcage chassis), I have heard some mention of at least one of them using the earlier Atlas style yokes, but they are not PRs.

Not trying to start an argument, so please don;t take this as a criticism, but I really don't understand what bikes you were asking about. My '71 PR was part of the PR production run, not a replica, and an actual racer for almost 20 years, and it had standard Commando yokes.

Ken
 
Madnorton said:
Much of the above relates to Norvil racers - Kuhn did not race Norvil production bikes, a subtle difference, so it would be better put back to Kuhn spec and style. He raced Kuhn production racers. The OP bike has to be bike number 1, as we have bike number 2 which will be at Stafford this month. We wondered where the other bike bike ended up, we know a lot about the two bikes and the riders, but cannot say categorically who rode what bike when.
I suggest the OP gets in touch with me at AN as we have a lot of history on the two bikes. Just because parts are 'missing' could be because they were never there in the first place.
As for parts we are having the same problem, as the bikes are unique and fitted with parts that are not in the Kuhn catalogue of the day, this can be seen from the photos online, these are Kuhn racers not replica's, they never saw a track as a Norvil racer either.
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Interesting. Didn't Kuhn also sell standard Commando PRs (aka Norvil Production Racers) as part of the business? Or did he only sell his Kuhn variation? If the OP's bike is the missing number 1 Kuhn racer, not a standard PR, then it would certainly seem worthwhile to make the additional effort to restore it to the original Kuhn configuration.

Ken
 
For those interested, we had a pretty good thread about the Gus Kuhn bikes here:

www.accessnorton.com

1973 Norton Commando 750 Gus Kuhn

Was the 1973 Norton Commando 750 Gus Kuhn a PR with Gus Kuhn parts? Or she was a stock bike with Gus Kuhn parts?. In other words, exists the PR Gus Kuhn or only the PR or the Gus Kuhn?. Thank you. Piero
www.accessnorton.com www.accessnorton.com

Ken
 
lcrken said:
Interesting. Didn't Kuhn also sell standard Commando PRs (aka Norvil Production Racers) as part of the business? Or did he only sell his Kuhn variation? If the OP's bike is the missing number 1 Kuhn racer, not a standard PR, then it would certainly seem worthwhile to make the additional effort to restore it to the original Kuhn configuration.

Ken
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Answering my own question, with info from the Gus Kuhn site L.A.B. posted in the link above. Yes, Gus Kuhn sold both his Commando variations, and normal Commandos, including the Commando PR. Lots of fascinating GK history on that site.

Ken
 
The Kuhn racer will be stamped differently adjacent to the engine number. Remember PR were also built and photographed on the roof of the old Plumstead works, these would pre-date the yellow Thruxton bikes we know of, what happened to those bikes I am not sure. The bike above is a racer that Kuhn used for his own race team, not a 'replica' one he sold to any old customer. From photos of the period it can be clearly seen the replicas are nothing like the actual team race bikes in many ways. In the early days there was a lot of reluctance to sell Kuhn production racers, by the time Norton did, it was practically too late as things had moved on and Kuhn was into the BMW's.
 
From conversations I had with Tony Smith (RIP) the Kuhn race bikes were very, very, far removed from anything available to the public.
 
I do not understand what you are trying to do. If you are building a road bike which would be a pretendy racer - that is one thing. If you are restoring an old racing motorcycle - that is quite another. Braided steel brake lines were around in the 1970s and used on many race bikes, as were Boyer ignition systems. I still live in that era. If I race, the guys whom I race against do not think like me. The olden days were much more cut-throat., and we had shit tyres. Life is about having fun. If you can find a class to race it in, a Commando PR would be good. But it would be wasted as a road bike.
 
Fast Eddie said:
From conversations I had with Tony Smith (RIP) the Kuhn race bikes were very, very, far removed from anything available to the public.
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The Kuhn race bikes had MK3 Seeley frames. I don't know what Ken Blake was riding when he died on the IOM, however he raced one of the Kuhn bikes. A Seeley frame probably gives more benefit than many other mods, Good handling and lower weight compensate for less horsepower. I do not believe my motor delivers more than 65 BHP, and the bike is still quick enough.
 
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Changing fork yokes needs to be done with a lot of care the first time you ride the bike after a change. Commando yokes probably have more offset than Featherbed yokes, so would cause less trail. That causes the bike to be more stable and understeer. If you create a real problem, you can be grabbed by the throat. I would suggest fitting Featherbed yokes to a Commando would be a good way to go for racing, but not for road use. With a racer, you are always 100% on top of the bike.
 
Fast Eddie said:
The GK Seeley racers had Seeley frames.

The GK production racers had production frames. Well, kinda.
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I have only ever really thought about Gus Kuhn in terms of his Seeley framed road bikes. I have never seen a photo of his racers. I would be interested to know what type of exhaust system he used on his racers. When I made my exhaust system, I did not copy. I used my experience with my previous bike as a guide.
 
Picture below is from the GK website.

5 bikes, 4 of which are PR and 1 is a Seeley.

The PR bikes appear to be running production pipes, I’m not sure, but I assume that was a requirement of the regulations.

Production Racer - Need Reference Bike
 
Fast Eddie said:
Picture below is from the GK website.

5 bikes, 4 of which are PR and 1 is a Seeley.

The PR bikes appear to be running production pipes, I’m not sure, but I assume that was a requirement of the regulations.

View attachment 110454
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My Commando had early PR exhausts which had the pipes closer to the frame to reduce grounding and the silencers had practically nothing inside.
 
Production racing is never that. It is obviously a concept created by silly people. If there is going to be production racing, every single aspect of the bikes must be scrutinised. My friend who is a motorcycle dealer was involved in the Castrol 6 Hour Race. When certain makes of bikes were imported from Japan, the dealers had a list of the engine numbers of the bikes which were intended to be used in the 6 hour race.
 
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