Mk3 Battery upgrade - Shorai LFX21A6-BS12

gtiller said:

@Fast Eddie the reg/rec is wired directly to the +ve and -ve terminals of the battery via it's own fuse.

The logic behind that is if there is charging issue:
1) the charging circuit fuse will blow, protecting the battery
2) maybe this will give you a chance of getting home, as the coil will still be getting power

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Sensible.

What fuse rating?

Peter R said:

On a non-electric starting Commando, an old style lead/acid battery will be ok, and worked well for the last 40 odd years on my bikes, and I suspect that exotic li-ion batteries are imo a solution in search of a problem.

However what I read above about the Podtronics regulators was something I was unaware of : The fact that these regulators kept the alternator on full load all the time. Should I be worried now? I installed a podtronics regulator on the Commando about a year ago, works well so far, although I have to admit that I did not put many miles on it after installation of this unit. would replacement with a Shindingen unit be a safer option ?

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As was suggested by gtiller way back in post #17, read this and decide whether or not you want to do anything different: https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/voltage-regulators.19023/

As regards to Shorai, for me, they’re lighter, simple as that. If you’re not interested in weight saving (and many people aren’t, which is fine) then you’re right, there’s no problem to solve. If you are (and some people are, which is fine) then there is.

@Fast Eddie i use the modern car type blade fuses - 20amp



With modern fuses, their rating is the continuous operating amperage.
Their blow rating is around double that.


@MexicoMike from what I understand of the podtronics type reg/rec units, they turn the load away from the electronics when charge is not required.

Nearest analogy I have is putting a knife across the terminals of a 9 volt battery - it gets hot.
This is effectively what the reg/rec is doing when the battery doesn’t require the charge.

Hmm...In that regard, then, it sounds as if it is doing the same thing that the OEM Lucas/Zener system did, just happens to be in one component as opposed to a rectifier and remote-mounted zener(s).

Just a reminder that the MkIII charging system requires the uprated Podtronics reg/rec. The one for older Nortons will fail in use if used on a MkIII.

Fast Eddie said:

You sure Glen...? gtiller has a Shorai battery on his mk3...

If I’m understanding his posts correctly, he is making a case for use of correct components to control the charging circuit properly... and pointing out what can happen if you don’t, especially if using a lithium battery.

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Yes, I think they can work if you change out the charging system to one that produces a minimum of 13.1 volts at idle, as Shorai dictates.
For me this means 13.1 at idle with headlight on, because I sometimes get in that situation.
I don't see a charging system for the Norton that will do that.
If you avoid night driving in the city and make all the changes gtiller suggests, then you will probably be ok .

Both of my failed LiFePO4 batteries were undersupplied with voltage.
The seller assured me that the batteries would work great in that situation and I didn't know anything about them, other than that they were lightweight replacements for lead acid.
I know a bit more now.
The company that produced those batteries has gone out of business.

On a non estart bike the weight savings isn't that much with Li vs the expense of changing the charging system. You could just run a 6ah gel or AGM instead as that's all you have in storage on an LFX18. I know some get all upset over running a small battery, but they will work fine and do so for a long time. I run a 6ah agm in a Vincent as space in the battery box is a problem. The Yuasa batteries last about 5 years in there. I ride with headlight on, often use a heated vest and have a heavy draw old points/coil ignition.
Glen

I agree that any "standard" Norton charging system will not produce 13.1V at idle with the headlight on, at least not a standard bulb. It MIGHT with an LED bulb in both head and tailight. I installed an LED voltage monitor temporarily on the triple-tree to monitor charging voltage while riding. At idle - around 1000 RPM it was putting out 13.2-13.3v with no lights. 12.7 with the lights on. The standard bulbs supposedly draw around 5A; allegedly the LED draws 1A so maybe it would work!

MexicoMike said:

Don't see how having the alternator on "full load" makes any difference to anything. It's the electronics that take the "load." So if the podtronics can "take it," and mine has since '12, what's there to be concerned about?

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I think that the windings of the alternator also heat up under these conditions as they are running to basically a short circuit.

@worntorn to my knowledge, the original factory package behaves as follows:

• rectifier is always converting AC output of alternator to DC
• if battery is charged, the zener leaks 'excess' current to the frame via it's ground stud, thus warming up the z-plate.
• zener diode works on voltage threshold the breakdown voltage according to Lucas is set to 12.75 volts

There is a great diagram on the Shindengen website about different Regulator/Rectifier types https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/motorcycle/reg/

Here is a summary:

For the Podtronics (and MOST other Regulator/Rectifiers)



For the SH775 and newer style Series Type Regulator/Rectifiers

Well now I'm confused.
Paul Hamon, maker of Alton products, told me that the worst thing I could do to the Alton was run it with wires disconnected, no load! He said it would cook in short order( pardon pun)

Isn't that what the open type regulator is doing once threshold voltage is reached?

Glen

@worntorn not connecting the DC side of the regulator/rectifier to a battery, capacitor or light bulb will indeed cook things in pretty quick order!

Unless there is something special about the Alton alternator (which i thought was just a standard single phase alternator), I can't see that disconnecting the AC side would do anything detrimental.

I am no Alton expert, so maybe someone else can chime in on that one.

gtiller said:

to my knowledge, the original factory package behaves as follows:

• rectifier is always converting AC output of alternator to DC
• if battery is charged, the zener leaks 'excess' current to the frame via it's ground stud, thus warming up the z-plate.
• zener diode works on voltage threshold the breakdown voltage according to Lucas is set to 12.75 volts

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the zener leaks 'excess' current to the frame
To be more specific:
The zener DUMPS WHOLESALE the excess CURRENT to the red ground wire and the HEAT is absorbed by the Z plate

voltage threshold the breakdown voltage according to Lucas is set to 12.75 volts

Lucas zener reverse voltage is actually 14.3 volts, and like every zener is a nonlinear device.

I can not conceive where a alternator rotor left to run open circuit with no external load will become damaged.
The voltage WILL go through the roof but current will be microscopic or zero.
Any heat would be from the currents in the steel of the stator as the magnets try to excite the copper which is not passing anything if not connected.
This would be a study of source load impedance ...differing from external load impedance.
This study would be needed if you study the load dumping podtronics VS the source blocking type shindgen regulator.

I’m no expert but don’t most modern auto regulators open the circuit when the battery is charged? I’m not sure if it is controlled in the alternator or the ECU though. I saw somewhere my Accord is set up that way, suppose to help on MPG. It’s all over my head.......

No expert here either but here's my simple take on automotive alternators-
The rotor on an auto alternator is generally an electro magnet, not a permanent magnet like our bike alternators.
With the electro magnet the strength of the magnet can be controlled by the regulator to reduce excess output.

With the permanent magnet setup the output is dependant on rpm, the strength of the magnets is constant.
The power has to go somewhere so the designers came up with the Zener, then later the Podtronics style regulators.
Both just dump excess power to ground, in other words, convert electrical energy to heat.
Without any wires hooked up you can feel the resistance as you use fingers to slowly turn the rotor of a permanent magnet alternator.
This takes energy, puts a load on the engine.
I suspect that load is the same whether the alternator wires are connected or not.
With the wires connected the energy produced goes to electrical loads with excess going to ground, hence the heat fins on the reg.
So without the AC wires connected does this heat all end up in the alternator rather than at the loads and finned reg?
Work is still being done and we know that energy is always conserved, so it has to go somewhere.


Probably an over simplification of things but it gets me down the road.

Glen

Glen,
I follow your logic, I know less now than I did an hour ago
I think I’ll go change my oil, at least I understand that. Now what oil should I use.................?
Pete

Thanks to Comnoz, coming up with an oil choice is an easy one!

Re the regulator /alternator questions, I have emailed Paul Hamon at Alton to see if my memory/understanding is correct.
Will post his answer.

Glen

So I had it wrong-

Paul said-

"First of all, I have a large experience in using regulators since the beginning of the Alton venture some 20 years ago.
It does not mean that I am an expert in electronics for regulation. My point of view is more pragmatic than anything else as I used various sources of regulators in our special field of classic motorcycles and more precisely with permanent magnetic generators we developed here for this purpose of classic motorcycles.

Your statement that « work being done whether a load is connected or not, so heat is produced » is wrong from my point of view.
A permanent magnet generator produces nothingwhen it is open. No current therefore no heat. The only « work » is to face the cogging effect of the permanent magnets but it is a low and purely mechanical load. Moreover it has no direct heating effect on coils.
This is basically why and how the switch type regulators such as SHINDENGEN SH775 are done. When you rev up the engine, they open the generator circuit to limit the voltage to the battery.
In opposition « shunt » (shorting) type regulators (the most common) shunt the circuit and regulate voltage that way (voltage drops down then) and « rewire » it normally to reach the requested charge voltage.

Jean is right ( Paul's friend Jean DR who posted info on accessnorton about regs and pointed us to the Shindengen sh775): SHINDENGEN are better in theory but this is only theory. So that I cannot follow his idea at the end.
In practice switch type regulators are far more complicated and expensive to produce so that the vast majority if regulator makers (and therefore the vast majority of modern motorcycles using PM generators) chose the « shunt » type design.
There are 2 opposed points of view : theory and practice (or pragmatism) with their 2 opposed solutions.

Back to the experience of Alton : I mean the regulators we supply with the PM generators done to replace the 3 inch dynamos. It is important to know that some shunt type regulators are so BAD they destroy the coils of PM generators in a short time. After various experiences from multiple sources, we finally chose PODTRONIC to supply with our generators. They are shunt type, the most economical way (theoretically), but they are top quality.
We were very happy with test results. We supply them since end of 2012. This is now more than 6 years of very favorable feed backs with a very low number of issues.

Why do we NOT supply these Podtronic regulators with the starter kits for Norton ? This is another story. We choose to trust the regulators already fitted on the motorcycles with the idea of making things as simple as possible. Are we right ? Is it a risk ? At this point with 5 years experience with the starter kits plus our validations by our own I would say it works that way. We saw few issues with the stators. No many charging problems are reported.
I know that many dont like the original Zener diode + rectifier (supposed to be a bit rough by « experts"), I keep confidence in this very simple solution. To me this is still a good compromise when the matter is our beloved classic motorcycles.

The original rectifier/zener(s) works fine and it did so on my Commando. I don't see that the podtronics I now use works any better at all than did the Lucas rectifier/Zeners. The reason I went to the Podtronics was simply because my bike had the 3 phase lucas alternator with the associated rectifier/dual zener and the Alton alternator was single phase so I bought the Podtronics single phase for that reason. In actual charging performance, there is virtually no difference in the maximum voltage supplied. If my bike had had the original single phase Lucas alternator/rectifier/Zener when I installed the Alton E-start I would not have bothered with the Podtronics at all. Frankly, I don't see any advantage to it from an operational point of view.

Maybe the only advantage is that it is one thing instead of three things, so a bit more compact, less wiring.
I have one with Lucas rm23 on the MK3. Same observation as yours, no difference in charging vs stock Zeners and Rectifier.

Alton include a Podtronics with their dynamo replacement units as those old Miller and Lucas voltage regulators are for DC input from a dynamo, they won't work with an Alton.

Glen

MexicoMike said:

The original rectifier/zener(s) works fine and it did so on my Commando. I don't see that the podtronics I now use works any better at all than did the Lucas rectifier/Zeners. The reason I went to the Podtronics was simply because my bike had the 3 phase lucas alternator with the associated rectifier/dual zener and the Alton alternator was single phase so I bought the Podtronics single phase for that reason. In actual charging performance, there is virtually no difference in the maximum voltage supplied. If my bike had had the original single phase Lucas alternator/rectifier/Zener when I installed the Alton E-start I would not have bothered with the Podtronics at all. Frankly, I don't see any advantage to it from an operational point of view.

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My experience was that over a period of 2yrs i replaced both the zener and rectifier at least once(1975-77), the podtronics and products like it, now 40 yrs later are reliable. that is the best reason to toss the lucas bits.