Spark Plugs do not fit

Simply trying to reinsert that existing plug with the insert will never work. It needs to be properly repaired. It looks like a Helicoil or off brand solid insert. Not to be confused with the Helicoil wire type. The Helicoil solid insert will come out. It doesn't look like a Timesert and they almost never come out. You can replace the failed Helicoil insert with a Big Sert but it will be right up to the valve seat. I did one with no problems but you are taking a bit of risk that the seat could come loose. I highly recommend you remove the head and let a pro sort it out.
https://www.timesert.com/html/bigsert.html
 
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A picture is worth a 1000 words. I am only familar with the wire type Helicoil. But now I see the other "solid" type.
Since you have the threads cut in the head. It seems it would be easy Easier to just clean up the threads in the head and get new inserts I would use Locktite or JB weld secure it in., I guess the way in the video, he taps on it to set the knurl is good. I always watch several video to see if there are better info on other people's videos. Does it look like the knurling has been set into the head?

 
Fast Eddie said:
Yup… you better call Kenny… top guy.

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Thanks. Already emailed him.
Carl H said:
A picture is worth a 1000 words. I am only familar with the wire type Helicoil. But now I see the other "solid" type.
Since you have the threads cut in the head. It seems it would be easy Easier to just clean up the threads in the head and get new inserts I would use Locktite or JB weld secure it in., I guess the way in the video, he taps on it to set the knurl is good. I always watch several video to see if there are better info on other people's videos. Does it look like the knurling has been set into the head?

Click to expand...

Thank you for sourcing out that video. I agree, watching videos a few times before beginning a project is very important. As Dirty Harry once said, "A man's got to know his limitations." Taking the cylinder head off is probably the best bet for a proper repair. Since I live in an apartment in Brooklyn and I usually do repair work out in the street, I may leave this job to the experts. I wouldn't feel confident working in the street, taking the head off, repairing it and putting it back on in just one day. Also, watching the video and seeing the repair being done, if I were to leave the head on the possibility of shards of metal falling into the engine are just too great.
 
Take a lot of photographs. Bore scope shots as well if you have one.
Take all the nasty dirty parts you have from both cylinders and buy an hour of NYC Norton works time for some analysis.
You won't regret it and you'll make a new friend
 
After understanding the constraints you are working under, I might back up on my recommendation of sending it to a pro right away. I think I would try a new helicoil insert of the type seen in the video one more time. First look into the sparkplug hole and make sure the exhaust valve is closed and piston is down in the cylinder. Rotate the engine until it is closed if necessary. See if the insert will thread into head without recutting the threads. If you need to clean the threads a bit to screw in the insert, pack the flutes of the tap with grease, that will catch 95% of the cuttings. Compressed air is good to blow out the hole, if you don't have access, tape a small hose into a vacuum hose and suck out any other bits. Any micobits left will blow out the exhaust. Degrease hole with brake fluid. Be sure and use high temp red loctite 272 on the outside of insert(not rtv). Hit the knurling tool with a decent rap. Wait over night before installing plugs. Use new plugs with a bit of antiseize on the plug threads and just tighten them enough to crush the gaskets.
I doubt if you will damage the threads any further doing this and you might get lucky and get it to hold. It's easy for us old guys with workshops and lifts and all the tools and the experience to say just pop the head off. Maybe an hour for us. But most of us were in your shoes at one point.
 
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As far as removing the collar from the plug, couldn't it be "double nutted" off? If you can find two nuts with the same thread as the collar, thread them on and tighten them into each other. Maybe put plug in a vise and turn the lower nut to loosen?
 
Edfury828 said:
As far as removing the collar from the plug, couldn't it be "double nutted" off? If you can find two nuts with the same thread as the collar, thread them on and tighten them into each other. Maybe put plug in a vise and turn the lower nut to loosen?
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That's a good call. It may be stretch finding them but definitely worth the time to search.
 
I believe I would start with a new insert. They are pretty thin and you might distort the old one removing it. Besides you might need the tap.
 
I remember someone doing a test on various types of rethreading devices and he came to the conclusion that helicoils/recoils were as strong as any he tested. Considering that helicoils and recoils are so easy to fit, it is a no brainer to keep using them. You just have to make sure you use the correct length. I used many of them as a mechanic with no problems when done correctly.

This is no help here though, but thought anyone reading this could use the suggestion rather go with some other more elaborate device, which is no better. I think Timeserts was one of the ones tested and he was known to use them.

Jim was the man who tested them.
 
Jim's tests were on the head for the studs, a fit and hopefully forget application where the strength of the insert was the deciding factor. A sparkplug insert is a different application, subjected to multiple replacement of sparkplug's where the torque applied should be low, so the inserts ability to (but not in this case so the establishment of Gorilla's who did the last service should be avoided) stay in position, make good electrical contact is a higher priority than strength.
 
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kommando said:
Jim's tests were on the head for the studs, a fit and hopefully forget application where the strength of the insert was the deciding factor. A sparkplug insert is a different application, subjected to multiple replacement of sparkplug's where the torque applied should be low, so the inserts ability to (but not in this case so the establishment of Gorilla's who did the last service should be avoided) stay in position, make good electrical contact is a higher priority than strength.
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Thank you all for your comments. The job is done. I could not have done it without your experiences and knowledge. A few observations I discovered during the process. When I examined the collars and the holes in the cylinder head I realized that the threads were quite clean. I don't believe that any adhesive was ever used to seal them in. It also seemed to me that whoever did the repair job may not have used the punch to lock them in. The tops of the collars looked new. I am also at fault. When I previously replaced the spark plugs I forgot to apply any anti seize paste to them. Lesson learned!
 
PatMat said:
Thank you all for your comments. The job is done. I could not have done it without your experiences and knowledge. A few observations I discovered during the process. When I examined the collars and the holes in the cylinder head I realized that the threads were quite clean. I don't believe that any adhesive was ever used to seal them in. It also seemed to me that whoever did the repair job may not have used the punch to lock them in. The tops of the collars looked new. I am also at fault. When I previously replaced the spark plugs I forgot to apply any anti seize paste to them. Lesson learned!
Click to expand...
So… how did you fix it ?
 
“Just for clarity, when the choke handle is pointed towards me, sitting on the bike, it is closed.”

If by “closed” you mean the choke is no longer in the airstream, and is off, then yes. If you mean that the choke is “closed” and obstructing the airstream, richening the mixture, then no.

Because the choke plates are contained within the carb slide they need to be lifted up in order to be moved out of the way and stop enriching the mixture, which means the lever must be moved to shorten the cables. This confused me at first too, as it seemed you had to pull the chokes on to turn them off.

If you remove the air filter and look into the carb end while opening and closing the throttle and move the choke lever about it all becomes very clear.
 
Lineslinger said:
What FE said...what was your final process?
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The spark plug collars were undamaged and clean. I cleaned both the collars and the holes with brake cleaner. I left the old spark plugs in the collars and coated them with high heat locktite. I let them set for a day until the locktite cured. The spark plugs came out without any fuss. I made sure I coated the new plugs with anti seize paste this time. The bike is going over to my mechanic this week for electrical issues. He said that he'll check over my work.
 
Elfix said:
“Just for clarity, when the choke handle is pointed towards me, sitting on the bike, it is closed.”

If by “closed” you mean the choke is no longer in the airstream, and is off, then yes. If you mean that the choke is “closed” and obstructing the airstream, richening the mixture, then no.

Because the choke plates are contained within the carb slide they need to be lifted up in order to be moved out of the way and stop enriching the mixture, which means the lever must be moved to shorten the cables. This confused me at first too, as it seemed you had to pull the chokes on to turn them off.

If you remove the air filter and look into the carb end while opening and closing the throttle and move the choke lever about it all becomes very cl
Click to expand...
 

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